Curse

Lord Oranos · Sep 13, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I didnt know whether to post this thread in here or in the Arcane Repository, seeing as I intend this to be a suggestions thread.

Ok, lets look at this skill:

Death's Charge

5 1/4 45

Shadow Step to target foe. If that foe has more Health than you, you are healed for 40...112.

Now, the spells recharge time is horrible(like most teleports, excluding AoD). Personally, Id like this to be synced with Returns recharge time, which is 15 seconds. The only possible "abuse" I can think of atm (No idea why people think its abuse when others use tele skills) would be it would be more useable, meaning hammer warriors are more mobile to do their spikes.

Now, AoD has the ability to teleport in and out, but it is elite. To produce a similar effect without the elite status, you need 2 skills(Not counting Shadow of Haste, due to it not shadow stepping you in and out.). Isnt the downside of needing two skills for this enough?

What do you guys think?

Ian Savage · Sep 13, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

its an interesting concept. the other thing is tho, AoD costs 10 energy, and is a maintained enchantment. if you drop the recharge, an idea that has crossed my mind from time to time, think 25-30 seconds, not 15. return is a defencive skill, not offencive, hence the lower recharge. i think make it 25-30, keeps it balanced, makes the skill more effective for primary sins.

Lord Oranos · Sep 13, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Well, yeah, maybe it would sync too well, but, the assassin doesnt really have that many mobile skills, and, honestly I think it would work more like the skill Heart of Shadow, exept youd actually get to choose who to teleport to, and you might get a heal out of it. I wouldnt mind death's charge being 20-25s recharge, also another reason I think the 15 seconds is reasonable.

The Death's Charge/Return combo even when modified to being 15 seconds recharge time requires allies to be around to escape, hindering the combo a bit.

thedeadwalk! · Sep 13, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

If they don't change the recharge perhaps take away the stipulation of the foe needing more health than you. I know it sucks if you're waiting for them to dip below, to use the skill just to have it voided by a quick burst in healing and then have to wait another 45 seconds.

You could try Heart of Shadow. It has the same stats as Death's Charge, except with the 15 second recharge, and you get 10...94 health the next time you're hit within 60 seconds.

Minus Sign · Sep 13, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

/signed to reduce recharge on Death's Charge. In the meantime, A/R with SQ helps keep your downtime managable.

EDIT: Heart of Shadow is random nearby location, not to target.

BahamutKaiser · Sep 13, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

The health is really worthless either way, the recharge needs to be lowered.

AoD cost to much anyways, all teleports have been priced to high in either recast or energy cost, making them prohibitive.

Dark Prison is Just as bad, it should have a recast of 25 seconds at most. And Death's Charge belongs at 15 recast.

Whatever Warrior can do with it is about as relavent as what Ranger can do with Blood Magic, other classes can often use their secondary skills with more potency than the class they belong to, but those skills can't be nerfed to keep the secondary applications low, they need to be strong enough for their primary class anyways.

And Unlike Running skills which often work fine for Warriors, Teleports don't chase enemies, it may get you to their location immediately, but they can run and you still have to chase them, without running skills or Dark Prison, your still not pacing them, your only surprising them. Nor can Advance Teleports like Dark Prison and Death's Charge be used to escape, they only allow you to advance, another weakness compared to running skills.

Because of Assassins inherant lack of defense, his manuverability skills need to be effective, and frequent, if they arn't frequent than he can't use proper In and Out tactics, thus he is crippled.

AoD does cost 10 energy and Maitenance, but if you compare it as a combination of Death's Charge and Recall, it is actually in the middle in cost, and it combines the strengths of both skills into one slot, that alone makes it elite, so AoD doesn't need to be changed as well. But I think AoD and Recall should both be 5 energy cheaper, Assassin doesn't have that kind of energy to expend, exspecially proceeding an advance where he will need to execute a full combo.

And Heart of Shadow should also have it's recast cut in half, they can cut the enchantment length by 75% for all I care, it's only good as a spammable defense, not a semi available counter heal and escape with no aim. Or they can reduce the recast to 5 seconds and reduce the teleport radius to Nearby or in the Area, just enough to dodge a projectile. It isn't as effective as Vampiric Weapon or Reversal, because it doesn't block damage or steal it from the enemy, the least it can do is be reusable enough to deserve a skill slot.

It is really a matter of neccessity for Assassin, he doesn't have the defense to charge into battle like a warrior, and though it is foolish to charge in before than the Warriors, making the Assassin the solo and brief target of several enemies, he should be able to get in fast enough to put down a combo and leave before the enemy can track him, and he needs to be able to do it more than once every 45 seconds, or even 30 seconds, it needs to be 15, 25 at most.

If they have to increase the cost to 10 to make it balanced, so be it, at least we will have the neccessary function of using Death's Charge every 15 seconds, if they are going to bump up the price though, they should make the healing non-circumstancial.

UBS · Sep 13, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I guess the 45 seconds is there for both effects of the skills.
15 seconds is far too little recharge for a none elite teleport. 15 seconds would make the warrior teleport all over the place, where one is meant to run around on his feet. I think 30 - 40 seconds would be a better ercharge, but this skill goes by its skill name, and that's to charge into the opponents death. If it was 15 seconds, warriors would be all over the place, which gives them too much strafing power.

JR · Sep 13, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Death's Charge is already easily good enough. Seriously, it does not need a buff at all.

around · Sep 13, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Make something like:

Shadow Step

Shadow Step to target foe (50% fail chance with Shadow Arts 7 and below).

5e 1/4 sec cast 15 sec recharge.

Scavenger Rage · Sep 13, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Make something like:

Shadow Step

Shadow Step to target foe (50% fail chance with Shadow Arts 7 and below).

5e 1/4 sec cast 15 sec recharge.

WAY 2 overpowered....

What we could do is:

1. nerf this one to 15e 1/4 sec cast 25 sec recharge.

2. create a new skill called:

- Critical Charge (the name is not 2 good i know, need some improvement): Shadow Step to target foe and inflict 1 critical hit on arrival (50% chance of failure with Critical Strike 7 and below).

- 10e 1/4 15 sec recharge

- The critical attribute would mean NO ONE else from assassin would be able to use it, making warriors and other stuff don’t get benefit out of it. I considered also an ELITE alternative for it, so we wouldn’t have to rely on AOD for every single GvG ^^ (and for the ones that say “I don’t use AOD on all my GVG builds, ooo well, I don’t do it either, but I DEFFINETELY miss it on the middle of the battle when I don’t bring it ;D)

----------------

- Critical Charge {ELITE}: Lead Atack. Step to target foe and inflict 1 critical hit on arrival (50% chance of failure with Critical Strike 7 and below).

- 5e 1/4 15 sec recharge.

- Lead attack + teleport would make combos quicker, PLUS, it counts as a critical attack so the skill itself costs almost no energy.

I can definitely see some uses for both of the skills I suggested, also I don’t think lowering the Deaths Charge recharge is necessary since its use is NOT attack, its more like defensive / evasion thing to teleport to someone and stay alive long enough to kill him. Anyway, if it was 15 sec recharge it would be REALY unbalanced....2 much heal for 2 little time, leaving it at 45 mark and creating a new skill based on something else then Shadow Arts would be a lot better

Latter.

thedeadwalk! · Sep 13, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

EDIT: Heart of Shadow is random nearby location, not to target.

Doesn't matter. With a 15s recharge you could use it 3 times gaining up to 282HPs in the same time Death's Charge would get you 112HP. Plus, being teleported nearby could let you get some distance while your skills recharge; not that nearby is far away.

Anyway, I meant "same stats" as in energy cost, casting, recharge, not its effects as well.

@ Minus Sign: Okay, yeah, I never really thought of Death's Charge for anything other than healing. Glad we got this cleared up.

Minus Sign · Sep 13, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Death's Charge is already easily good enough. Seriously, it does not need a buff at all.

I will admit that I'm not a sin primarily. But one of the reasons behind that is that, when I use sins, I often find their in-bred movement ability lacking.

Perhaps its just a lingering impression from the Factions intro vid, but I had this picture in my mind of sins teleporting all over the place. You don't really get that with the skills at hand atm.

About alternate proffesion abuse: that can be solved with a simple %chance to fail if requirements are not met. Not so high that it nerfs the skill to anyone else, but high enough that you have to "want to use it" to put it on your bar.

@thedeadwalk!: my mistake. I was under the impression that you were suggesting subbing HoS for DC for combat use, not healing. As their teleport effects are not simular I hope you understand the confusion and my desire to clearify.

Mezmo · Sep 13, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

About alternate proffesion abuse: that can be solved with a simple %chance to fail if requirements are not met. Not so high that it nerfs the skill to anyone else, but high enough that you have to "want to use it" to put it on your bar.

Good idea. Kind of like gaile failing 50% with 4 air magic or less. Of course that got nerfed with the 10e cost and now only ele's use it.

I don't really use deaths charge much myself, but I probably would if you lowered recharge on it. That would make your W/A more powered in pvp being able to suddenly be on top of your monk, but if you see a W/A you'd know what to expect and properly prepare for it.

Terra Xin · Sep 13, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scavenger Rage

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Make something like:

Shadow Step

Shadow Step to target foe (50% fail chance with Shadow Arts 7 and below).

5e 1/4 sec cast 15 sec recharge.

WAY 2 overpowered....

What on earth are you smoking? So the following skill that I'm about to list below isn't MORE overpowering...?

Quote:

- Critical Charge: Lead Atack. Step to target foe and inflict 1 critical hit on arrival (50% chance of failure with Critical Strike 7 and below).

- 5e 1/4 15 sec recharge.

- Lead attack + teleport would make combos quicker, PLUS, it counts as a critical attack so the skill itself costs almost no energy.

So it's a lead attack, a shadow step AND an automatic critical?

Quote:

The health is really worthless either way, the recharge needs to be lowered.

It actually makes you wonder what it was that Anet were thinking when shadowstep came into mind. They're making it seem as though having what... 3 seconds saved instead of 'running' to your target is justification enough for 45 or 60 second recharge times, of one-way shadow stepping skills.

Death's Charge has a nasty condition that makes shadow stepping the first time quite redundant where you wont get any health. It effectively comes to about 3 health per second if you could say that this skill was spammable... you might as well just throw on mending instead.

Lord Oranos · Sep 14, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Death's Charge is already easily good enough. Seriously, it does not need a buff at all.

Could you explain? Maybe some examples? Id prefer Dash, or Siphon Speed over this teleport really... I dont see a reason to put it in a build, save a last second heal. Really, Id like to see a real good use for it, Im getting bored on my sin.

BahamutKaiser · Sep 14, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

No pro build uses Deaths Charge because it is useless. If your going to wait 45 seconds than you may as well wait a minute and use Dark Prison, because it has an effective Hex instead of healing that only triggers if your going in weaker than you target.

I don't give a crap what it does for warriors, As I said, the skills need to be balanced for the class that they are on, they can't be gimped because other classes are effective. Besides that, Warriors don't work the same way Assassins do, they have to build adrenaline, that means that they don't just teleport to enemies and start dealing skills, they have to either build up adrenaline on another target first, or build it up after they teleport to their target. As usual, any target weaker than a Warrior, which is everything, will run from them, and if Warrior is using his skills to teleport to the enemy, than he will not have as many skill slots available to chase them, teleports alone don't pace enemies, they only give you a surprise advance. Anet doesn't need to keep Warriors from teleporting any more than they need to gimp blood spells because Ranger can spam them, it isn't overpowered, it is just effective.

Putting a chance to fail on Death's Charge doesn't accomplish much either, Shadow Arts has good healing skills and other usefull skills available to them, they will just pump shadow arts as their thrid attirbute and use it for teleporting and healing as well, they just need to make ShadowStepping better because Assassins need it.

Reducing the recast on Death's Charge doesn't add frequent teleports to the game, AoD already does, reducing the recast on Death's Charge only gives us an non-Elite option, so all this Warriors would be broken if they had 15 second teleports crap is bogus, They arn't overpowered with 20 second teleports.

Reguardless, if Anet needs to keep ShadowSteps away from Warrior to keep some sort of imaginary balance than all they need to do is move all teleport skills to the Critical Strikes attribute and add a chance to fail if they don't have even 1 point in Critical Strikes. Because it is Assassins Primary.... I don't have to explain it.

Quite Honestly, Death's Charge would only have a miniscule advantage over Dash if it had a 15 second recharge, they can drop the healing or reduce it, Dash puts you across a location in 3 seconds, it is more than fast enough for Warrior to surprise someone. ShadowStepping has the advantage of overcoming blocks, and the disadvantage of being unidirectional, it needs to be frequent as well.

This is a neccessity for Assassin balance, it is a handicapped class, and it needs maneuverability to match the output of other classes.

dgb · Sep 14, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

About alternate proffesion abuse: that can be solved with a simple %chance to fail if requirements are not met. Not so high that it nerfs the skill to anyone else, but high enough that you have to "want to use it" to put it on your bar.

Warriors have plenty of spare attribute points, 16 mastery, 9 tactics and the rest is whatever they want, so unless you're moving it to critical strikes that won't solve anything.

Mezmo · Sep 14, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Warriors have plenty of spare attribute points, 16 mastery, 9 tactics and the rest is whatever they want, so unless you're moving it to critical strikes that won't solve anything.

Wait, no strength? Why would you put zero points in strength? If they made deaths charge have the same requirement as gaile it would be 20 attribute points, enough to boost up tactics/str a notch or 2 at higher lvls.

Edit: thought u meant move attribute points to crit strikes, not move skill there

dgb · Sep 14, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mezmo

Wait, no strength? Why would you put zero points in strength? And how could a warrior put skill points in critical strikes? Last time i checked that was an assasain primary only attribute. If they made deaths charge have the same requirement as gaile it would be 20 attribute points, enough to boost up tactics/str a notch or 2 at higher lvls.

Strength is garbage, it's the attribute you chuck points into when you have nothing else you need. The longer sprint is a bit meh, bulls strike works perfectly at zero spec and the AP is pox.

Last time I checked Death's Charge was not in critical strikes and the post I was responding to did not suggest moving it to critical strikes.

Zuranthium · Sep 14, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

A TON of Assassin skills need to be tuned on the side of improvement. There are basically 4 skills that make the Assassin playable right now:

Aura of Displacement
Falling Spider
Twisting Fangs
Horns of the Ox

I honestly believe that almost everything else the Assassin has needs a slight (or in some cases major) improvement. If you don't have at least 3 out of 4 of the skills I listed above in your build, your Assassin sucks. There needs to be more diversity.